David Lyon wrote:

>

> On Wed, 11 Mar 2009 09:55:00 -0700, Tim Roberts <timr@probo.com> wrote:

>

>> Delphi and VB are products that cost a thousand dollars or more..

>>

>

> So what.... python is better...

>

Yes, but that's not the point. The point is that, because they charge

thousands of dollars for their products, Borland and Microsoft can

afford to have teams of technical writers on staff, separate from the

developers, who do nothing but write documentation. On a project like

wx, there ARE no technical writers. What we have are programmers

helping other programmers, for free. Those programmers are ALWAYS more

interested in the next fascinating tweak to the code, not in writing

documentation, and most developers really want it to remain that way.

Do you see what I'm saying? Commercial products have documentation

because the companies can afford to pay writers and programmers at the

same time, so development doesn't lag. An open source project doesn't

have that luxury.

By the way, I don't want you to think that I'm disagreeing with you in

any major way. I'm merely trying to point out why things are the way

they are, and why it is very natural for it to be this way in this kind

of a project.

>> I'm not sure that's a productive use of time.

>>

>

> So where is the documentation time being allocated ?

>

This little sentence makes so many assumptions! You assume that (a)

there is "documentation time" to be allocated, that (b) there is a

master project plan that has schedules for this kind of thing, and that

(c) there is some project manager who is doing the scheduling and

distributing assignments. Again, you WOULD have all that inside Borland

and Microsoft, but not in a project like wx. It is much more ad hoc.

>> It is

>> very difficult to overestimate the incredible amount of time and effort

>> this requires, and for now most of would rather that the people who CAN

>> invest that time effort remain focused on programming.

>>

>

> You mean underestimate....

>

No! It is VERY easy to underestimate the effort needed for good

technical documentation. Take your estimate, and multiply it by 3.

> I'm getting too old to program... I want to write more documentation...

>

Believe me, there are a vast number of open source projects who would

dearly love to have someone like you on their team...

--

Tim Roberts, timr@probo.com

Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

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David Lyon wrote:

> That's just a procedural thing...

yes, but the procedures need to be in place before you can do much of

the real work.

> Let me know if could be assigned any task..

This was my point (3):

3) A BDFL for the docs -- someone that takes an interest and really

follows through on making it happen -- not do all the writing, but the

coordinating and motivating

we don't really have that person now -- Robin wants good docs, but is

doing everything else. Andrea did some good work, but is also do many

other things (like being kept awake by a crying baby ;-) )

So at this point, I don't think we have the procedures in place to make

it easy for someone to contribute a little bit. It appears we agree that

a new framework needs to be put in place, and have some good ideas about

what that should look like.

If you want to take the bull by the horns and make it happen -- GREAT!

Join the discussion, and work out with Robin and anyone else interested

a plan for how to do it, and go for it!

Short of that some places for smaller scale contributions:

- extra examples, etc, etc can be added to the Wiki.

- The Wiki could use a good clean up an organizing

- More examples and explanation can be added to the Demo.

- more "wxPython notes" can be added to the main wx docs.

-Chris

--

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Oceanographer

Emergency Response Division

NOAA/NOS/OR&R (206) 526-6959 voice

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Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception

Chris.Barker@noaa.gov

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On Thu, 12 Mar 2009 10:39:52 -0700, Tim Roberts <timr@probo.com> wrote:

> Do you see what I'm saying? Commercial products have documentation

> because the companies can afford to pay writers and programmers at the

> same time, so development doesn't lag. An open source project doesn't

> have that luxury.

True. Although let me share something with you.

There has been a trend in open source to collect funds, via donations

or with "products".. or services..

Then apply the money to pay people to fix some of the things that

the core developers don't/can'd be bothered to do.

This might include bug/fixes... new-drivers.. customisations whatever...

Interbase does this... and it helps them to no end...

Linux Kernel (IBM) is another great example...

You guys don't have to do that... but at the same time.. don't be locked

into thinking that you can't fix things because of lack of resources.

If you have a good project... getting commercial funding/involvment is

not so hard...

David

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David Lyon wrote:

> There has been a trend in open source to collect funds, via donations

> or with "products".. or services..

>

> Then apply the money to pay people to fix some of the things that

> the core developers don't/can'd be bothered to do.

>

> This might include bug/fixes... new-drivers.. customisations whatever...

>

> Interbase does this... and it helps them to no end...

I didn't know that Interbase is Open Source.

I thought only the 6.0 version is.

Any pointers to the newer Interbase Open Source versions?

Uwe

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Uwe Grauer escribió:

>

> Any pointers to the newer Interbase Open Source versions?

>

> Uwe

Hi Uwe, the open sourced Interbase evolved (a lot!) into the Firebird

project:

http://www.firebirdsql.org/

It is a great piece of software.

Regards,

--

Marcelo F. Fernández

Buenos Aires, Argentina

Licenciado en Sistemas - CCNA

E-Mail: fernandezm22@yahoo.com.ar

Jabber ID: fernandezm22@jabber.org

Public Key ID: 5C990A6C 111C3661

Blog: http://marcelosoft.blogspot.com

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Marcelo Fernández wrote:

> Uwe Grauer escribió:

>>

>> Any pointers to the newer Interbase Open Source versions?

>>

>> Uwe

>

> Hi Uwe, the open sourced Interbase evolved (a lot!) into the Firebird

> project:

>

> http://www.firebirdsql.org/

>

> It is a great piece of software.

>

> Regards,

I'm using Firebird since version 1.0!

Firebird != Interbase

Uwe

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Uwe Grauer escribió:

> Marcelo Fernández wrote:

>> Uwe Grauer escribió:

>>> Any pointers to the newer Interbase Open Source versions?

>>>

>>> Uwe

>> Hi Uwe, the open sourced Interbase evolved (a lot!) into the Firebird

>> project:

>>

>> http://www.firebirdsql.org/

>>

>> It is a great piece of software.

>>

>> Regards,

>

> I'm using Firebird since version 1.0!

> Firebird != Interbase

>

> Uwe

>

I don't think Borland (now Embarcadero Technologies) is still opening

the source code of new versions of Interbase. Anyway, the 6.0 code is here:

http://info.borland.com/devsupport/interbase/opensource/

The only developer team I know of, who took this code (and kept

improving it) was the Firebird people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firebird_(database_server)#History

Ok, now this is is OT ;-)

Regards,

Marcelo

--

Marcelo F. Fernández

Buenos Aires, Argentina

Licenciado en Sistemas - CCNA

E-Mail: fernandezm22@yahoo.com.ar

Jabber ID: fernandezm22@jabber.org

Public Key ID: 5C990A6C 111C3661

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Uwe Grauer wrote:

> Marcelo Fernández wrote:

>

>> Uwe Grauer escribió:

>>

>>> Any pointers to the newer Interbase Open Source versions?

>>>

>>> Uwe

>>>

>> Hi Uwe, the open sourced Interbase evolved (a lot!) into the Firebird

>> project:

>>

>> http://www.firebirdsql.org/

>>

>> It is a great piece of software.

>>

>> Regards,

>>

>

> I'm using Firebird since version 1.0!

>

I am only using it since 1.5, but

> Firebird != Interbase

>

My understanding is that FB is based on the code which Borland open

sourced and then "closed" again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InterBase

Werner

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On Fri, 13 Mar 2009 15:13:52 +0100, Uwe Grauer

<uwemailmeister@googlemail.com> wrote:

> David Lyon wrote:

>> There has been a trend in open source to collect funds, via donations

>> or with "products".. or services..

>>

>> Then apply the money to pay people to fix some of the things that

>> the core developers don't/can'd be bothered to do.

>>

>> This might include bug/fixes... new-drivers.. customisations whatever...

>>

>> Interbase does this... and it helps them to no end...

>

> I didn't know that Interbase is Open Source.

> I thought only the 6.0 version is.

>

> Any pointers to the newer Interbase Open Source versions?

Sorry... I meant Firebird..

They have a foundation.. collect funds.. and distribute the funds

to progress their project in areas where the volounteers aren't

willing/able.

I'm very sure the same model would be very advantagious to wxPython

as I believe it has fairly widespread uptake.

Regards

David

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